On Monday, former President Barack Obama and musician Bruce Springsteen debuted the first two episodes of an eight-episode podcast collaboration titled “Renegades: Born in the USA” on Spotify.

Springsteen and Obama have been friends for over a decade, and the podcast features them, as Spotify puts it, “in a deep and revealing conversation,” which took place at the Springsteen, New Jersey recording studio.

“On the surface, Bruce and I don’t have much in common,” Obama said in the introduction to the first episode. “He’s a white man from a small town in Jersey. I’m a mixed-race black man born in Hawaii with a childhood that took me around the world. He’s a rock and roll icon. lawyer and politician – not so cool. “

He continued, “But over the years, what we’ve discovered is that we have a common sensibility. About work, family, and America.”

The first two episodes of “Renegades” focus primarily on race and racism. Obama has spoken of feeling like an outsider in Hawaii. Springsteen discussed the racial makeup of Freehold, New Jersey, and integrated neighborhoods. Both spoke about the life and legacy of civil rights activist John Lewis.

But a thread that already runs through “Renegades”, and which should be discussed specifically in a future episode of the podcast, is what modern masculinity can and should look like – a topic that has been brought to the forefront of culture throughout the presidency of. Trump, who was, in many ways, guided by his own pugilistic and narrow definition of manhood.

Take this section from the first episode of the podcast, in which Springsteen and Obama explained that their wives, Patti Scialfa and Michelle Obama, hit it off.

“Michelle was very happy with the ideas you had about your failures as a man,” Obama said with a laugh. “And after we left a dinner party or a party or a conversation she was like, ‘See how Bruce understands his flaws and has come to terms with them in a way you haven’t? Uh, you should spend a little more time with Bruce, because he got down to business. So there was also a bit of a feeling that I needed to be coached to be a good husband. ”

Springsteen, also laughing, replies, “It was my pleasure.”

Already, some key tenets of their shared understanding of masculinity are coming to light through this simple exchange: respecting your spouse as a partner, being aware and admitting your limits, and continuing to work to become a better man and husband, which means often get rid of some of the most toxic traps of American masculinity.

The two men have previously discussed the concept of toxic masculinity. In a 2016 interview with NPR’s “Fresh Air,” Springsteen discussed how he had to shed the idea that there is a singular path to being recognized as a man.

“You are young and you are still looking for your young manhood,” he said. “You’re trying to figure out, what does that mean? There is a lot of pressure on young men to sort this out and we tend to look to one-dimensional iconography when it comes to what it means to be a adult man. ”

He also told “Fresh Air” host Terry Gross that his first character on stage was just that.

“If you just look on the outside, he’s more of an alpha male, which is kind of ironic, because that personally was never really me,” Springsteen said. “I think I created my particular stage character from my father’s life and maybe even built it to suit him to some extent.”

Several years later, at a 2019 conference for his My Brother’s Keeper initiative in Oakland, Obama discussed how racism plays a role in the perpetuation of toxic masculinity.

“The racism historically in this society sends a message that you are ‘less than’,” Obama said. “We think we have to compensate by exaggerating the stereotypical ways men are supposed to act. And that’s a trap.”

Later in the presentation, he said that “the notion that you define yourself as a man depends on being able to demean someone else – able to dominate – that’s an old view.”

But it was a point of view that defined Trump’s presidency.

From ignoring his ‘grab them by the pussy’ rhetoric as ‘locker room conversation’, to talking about his literal testosterone count, to portraying wearing a mask to prevent the spread. of the novel coronavirus as a form of weakness – then allegedly wanting to rip his shirt to reveal a Superman t-shirt after leaving Walter Reed after being hospitalized with coronavirus – Trump’s form of masculinity was sort of cartoonish machismo.

“Donald’s masculinity is a cartoon version of masculinity – it’s all about bragging,” author Tom Digby told Salon in 2020. “Donald is all about bravado; he never shows bravery. his current attempt to escape political defeat by sabotaging the postal service, Donald has always shown a complete lack of courage. ”

However, as Salon’s Matthew Rozsa reported in January, a recent study found that support for a dominant masculine style could be used to predict his love for Trump. “Trump used strategic rhetoric both in his 2016 presidential campaign and during his presidency that evoked elements of hegemonic masculinity and attempted to position him as the ideal man,” Schermerhorn wrote to Salon at the time. .

These limited views on what masculinity entails – stoicism, virility, domination – can contribute to a fear of social and political movements that would upset the current status quo based on gender, race and class, which can result in assault and violence. Through this lens, it’s no surprise that Trump’s presidency resulted in an attempted insurgency on the United States Capitol.

“Renegades: Born in the USA” promises to be a balm for that. In a time when the country is so fractured, in large part because of a president who refused to admit he was wrong, it’s refreshing to hear two men – both of whom represent America in their own way. – discuss with enthusiasm overcoming their shortcomings and coming better on the other side. As Springsteen puts it in the podcast, in order to change you have to let go of the ego and “empty yourself and become a vessel” for empathy.

Episodes of “Renegades: Born in the USA” will be released weekly Mondays on Spotify.